Archive for September 24, 2010

(Apologetics) John Vs Mike – 2

Posted: September 24, 2010 by CatholicJules in Apologetics

From the website: http://www.pro-gospel.org, by Mike Gendron

False Teachers Distort the Person of Christ
Jesus Christ is God’s perfect man and man’s perfect God. He is the perfect High Priest who offered Himself – the perfect sacrifice – once for the sins of His people. This  one sin offering has perfected for all time those who are sanctified (Heb. 10:14). For this reason there are no more offerings for sin (Heb. 10:18). The believer’s eternal sin debt was paid in full and their redemption was secured when God raised Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom. 4:25). Would there be false teachers who would deny this and steal away the honor and glory of our Savior?

Yes, Paul even warned us that some would come preaching another Jesus. They will offer a counterfeit Jesus “whom we [the apostles] have not preached” (2 Cor. 11:4). Many of these false teachers are Roman Catholics who preach a “Jesus” who does not save sinners completely and forever. They say Catholics must do their part by expiating and making satisfaction for their own sins through penance (CCC, 1459). In this way they attain their own salvation through good works (CCC, 1477). The Catholic Jesus offers conditional life, not eternal life (CCC, 1035). This counterfeit Christ is said to return physically to Catholic altars over 200,000 times each day to be a sin offering for the living and the dead (CCC, 1367).

Catholics must be warned of the consequences for not knowing and believing the true Jesus. This was made clear by Jesus when He said: “unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). Whenever religion rejects God’s authority, it creates “another Jesus” which always leads to “another gospel.” Why? Because whenever the sufficiency of Christ is denied, another gospel must be concocted to instruct people what they must do to be saved.

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Mike Gendron:

False Teachers Distort the Person of Christ
Jesus Christ is God’s perfect man and man’s perfect God. He is the perfect High Priest who offered Himself – the perfect sacrifice – once for the sins of His people. This  one sin offering has perfected for all time those who are sanctified (Heb. 10:14). For this reason there are no more offerings for sin (Heb. 10:18). The believer’s eternal sin debt was paid in full and their redemption was secured when God raised Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom. 4:25). Would there be false teachers who would deny this and steal away the honor and glory of our Savior?

John Martignoni

Jesus did indeed offer Himself once for the sins of his people…on the Cross.  Catholic teaching does not say differently.  Mr. Gendron only need look in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), which he is apparently familiar with, for this Catholic teaching.  CCC #1544 would be a good place for him to start.  We also believe there are no more offerings necessary for sin.  Unlike the Old Testament sin offerings which had to be repeated over and over again, because they did not take away sin, the offering of Jesus on the Cross is once for all – for all time and for all people and for all sins.  We do not need to spill the blood of anyone or anything else for the forgiveness of sins.  He could look at CCC #617, 1330, 1362-1372, 1851, and 2100, among others, to verify this Catholic teaching.

However, Mr. Gendron is trying, again, to make the Bible say something that it does not say.  Mr. Gendron’s very fallible interpretation of these verses from Hebrews would rule out any possibility of Jesus’ once for all sacrifice being re-presented, or participated in, here on Earth, or continually presented in Heaven.  But, that’s where his fallible interpretation runs into some scriptural difficulties.

Let’s look at Hebrews 5:14, “Since then we have a great high priest Who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God…” So, we see that Jesus is our high priest. What does the Bible tell us is the function of the high priest? Heb 5:1, “For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”

Jesus is our high priest, and a high priest’s duty is to offer sacrifice for sin.  How long is Jesus to be a high priest? Heb 5:6, “Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” So, Jesus is our high priest forever, and the duty of the high priest is to offer sacrifice. So, if Jesus is going to be our high priest forever, then He needs some sacrifice to offer on our behalf forever, as it says in Heb 8:3, “…hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.”

What does Jesus offer? Heb 9:12, “He entered once for all into the Holy Place taking not the blood of goats and calves, but His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.”  By reading Hebrews chapters 4 through 10, in context rather than plucking out a verse here or there as Mr. Gendron does, it becomes very apparent that the Old Covenant offerings of animals were merely a prelude to the pure offering (Malachi 1:11) of the New Covenant – Jesus Christ Himself. The offering of the high priests of old in the earthly Holy of Holies, was merely a dress rehearsal for the offering of the eternal high priest in the true Holy of Holies in Heaven.

Heb 9:24, “For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.” Jesus has entered Heaven and for now and all time presents His once for all offering to the Father on our behalf. He is not, however, continually re-sacrificed, “for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world” (Heb 9:26), rather He eternally presents His once for all sacrifice.

Every time a sinner turns to the Father for forgiveness, Christ, on our behalf, in effect says to the Father, “See, Father…see what I did for John. For Jim. For Mike. For Sharon. For Megan. For Julia. For Bob.” He eternally offers His sacrifice on our behalf.

Mike Gendron:

Yes, Paul even warned us that some would come preaching another Jesus. They will offer a counterfeit Jesus “whom we [the apostles] have not preached” (2 Cor. 11:4). Many of these false teachers are Roman Catholics who preach a “Jesus” who does not save sinners completely and forever. They say Catholics must do their part by expiating and making satisfaction for their own sins through penance (CCC, 1459). In this way they attain their own salvation through good works (CCC, 1477). The Catholic Jesus offers conditional life, not eternal life (CCC, 1035). This counterfeit Christ is said to return physically to Catholic altars over 200,000 times each day to be a sin offering for the living and the dead (CCC, 1367).

John Martignoni

Catholics do not offer a counterfeit Jesus, but Mr. Gendron does indeed offer a counterfeit Catholic Faith.  Catholics say we must do our own part, because that is exactly what the Bible says.  We must do “the will of God,” (Matt 7:21).  We must forgive others of their sins (Matt 6:14-15).  We must work the works that God has prepared for us beforehand (Eph 2:10).  We must labor for the food that endures to eternal life (John 6:27).  We must eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58).  We must be doers of the Word and not hearers only (James 1:22; Rom 2:13).  We must care for our family (1 Tim 5:8).  We must produce good fruit (John 15:1-6).  We must keep the Commandments (Matt 19:16-17).  We must love our brother (1 John 4:20-21).  We must have a faith that works through love (Gal 5:6).  And much more.

I find it less than honest that Mr. Gendron mentions particular quotes from paragraphs of the Catechism without giving any context for those quotes, and does his best to twist the meanings of those quotes.  For example, he is using CCC #1459 to imply that Catholics believe we, in essence, save ourselves from sin.  He fails to mention, however, that #1459 is not talking about expiating our sins and making satisfaction of our sins for the forgiveness of our sins, but rather after we have been absolved of sin (forgiven), we expiate and make satisfaction to help heal the wound to our own spiritual health that we have caused ourselves through our sin.  The sentence Mr. Gendron quotes from begins with: “Raised up from sin, the sinner must still…”  Which means that his sins have already been forgiven and now he must do penance for those sins.  Just as if a little boy broke the neighbor’s window with his basebal.  He would not be able to pay for fixing the window after he had received forgiveness for breaking it – his father would have to do that.  But, the little boy would then be required by his father, as a matter of justice, to do something to “make satisfaction” for the broken window.  The little boy’s efforts would not be sufficient in and of themselves to make satisfaction, but when joined to his father’s efforts, they would help satisfy the requirements of justice.   He also fails to give the context of the paragraph as a whole, as we see in CCC #1460 the words which completely contradict the argument Gendron is trying to make: “The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ.  We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of ‘him who strengthens us.’  Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ.”  But, Gendron conveniently ignores that context in order to distort the teachings of the Church in these matters.  Again, I find that less than honest.

He also states the following: “The Catholic Jesus offers conditional life, not eternal life (CCC, 1035).” Sorry, but I don’t see anything in #1035 that mentions anything about “conditional life.”  Paragraph #1035 is about the chief punishment of Hell being eternal separation from God.  So, I have no clue what he’s talking about with that one.

Mike Gendron:

Catholics must be warned of the consequences for not knowing and believing the true Jesus. This was made clear by Jesus when He said: “unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). Whenever religion rejects God’s authority, it creates “another Jesus” which always leads to “another gospel.” Why? Because whenever the sufficiency of Christ is denied, another gospel must be concocted to instruct people what they must do to be saved.

John Martignoni

It’s rather unfortunate that he would claim Catholics believe that Jesus’ death on the cross is somehow insufficient.  #617 of the Catechism, which I referenced earlier, states: “The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ’s sacrifice as ‘the source of eternal salvation’ [Heb 5:9] and teaches that ‘his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us.'”  And that is one of just many paragraphs in the Catechism that talk about how we are saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus.  Where does Mr. Gendron find something in the Catechism that states Christ’s death was insufficient?  He doesn’t, so he has to, through selective reading and his predisposition to bias, come up with “Catholic teaching” that really is not Catholic teaching.   He does as so many others do, he decides for himself, based on his fallible interpretations of Scripture and his counterfeiting of the Catholic Faith, that Catholic teaching is contrary to Scripture.  The problem is, when Scripture is interpreted properly, and when the Catholic Faith is understood as Catholics understand it – rather than as those who stand outside and throw rocks understand it – there is no conflict anywhere between the Bible and the Catholic Faith…none!

Catholics do indeed need to be warned, but they need to be warned about false teachers – wolves in sheep’s clothing – like Mr. Mike Gendron.

And let’s talk for a moment about authority.  By what authority does Mr. Gendron teach what he teaches?  Is he mentioned in the Bible?  Can he trace his ordination through the laying on of hands that he received all the way back to the Apostles so that he may claim Apostolic authority?  Has he even been ordained and had hands laid upon him?  How is it that he talks about rejecting God’s authority when he himself has no authority to be claiming the things he claims nor to be teaching the things he teaches?  I adhere to the authority of the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself.  Is Mr. Gendron under any such authority to a church, a pastor, or…who?  Doesn’t seem to be.  So yes, I reject something, but it is not God’s authority that I reject, rather I reject Mr. Gendron’s claim to the authority (whatever it may be) to pronounce judgment upon Catholics and Catholic teaching.  I reject his claim to the authority to infallibly interpret the Bible for me and one billion plus other Catholics and seek to force us to swallow his fallible, man-centered interpretations of Scripture.  It is Mr. Gendron who rejects all authority other than himself, including God’s, not Catholics who do so.  I call upon him to name the authority that he operates under?  Dare he claim that he has been visited by the Holy Spirit and given authority by that very same Spirit?  Dare he claim the Bible gives him the authority to teach and preach as he does?  If so, how so?  Again, where is his name in Scripture that I may believe?  Does the Bible say that just anyone can pick up a Bible and start preaching and teaching based on his own personal, fallible interpretation of the Bible?  No, it does not.

Regarding John 8:24, I do believe Jesus “is He.”  Who is Mr. Gendron to decide if my belief is true or not?  Who is Mr. Gendron to pronounce that I am or am not saved?  By what authority, Mr. Gendron, do you do these things?

To close, one question for Mr. Gendron: Please give me your interpretation of Malachi 1:11.  What is the “perfect offering” that is being offered in all the nations from the rising of the sun to its setting?  I thought Jesus’ death and resurrection made null and void the requirement for any “offerings?”

Finally, last week I asked the question: How is it we know the difference between the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error?  Is it by reading the Bible?  Mr. Gendron’s theology forces him to say, “Yes.”  However, the Bible, in 1 John 4:6, says it is by listening to the leaders of the Church.  Hmmm…