(Apologetics) John Vs Mike – 10

Posted: February 4, 2011 by CatholicJules in Apologetics

 

Mike Gendron 

John,

Your rebuke of God’s word is not backed up by any official references from the Catholic religion. In my article I state the source of my information but you appear to give your opinions instead of backing up your claims with the laughable “infallible” teachings of the magesterium.

You say Catholics are in purgatory because “they are not yet free from imperfections.” They ought to convert to Christ because born again Christians are made perfect forever at the moment of justification by the one offering of Jesus 2000 years ago (Heb. 10:14).

Where do you get the statement “grace earned for us by Jesus with His death on the Cross.” Did Jesus really have to earn grace?

Where do you get the idea that the fire of Purgatory is “the burning fire of God’s love for us.”
You said, “And how is it that we are able to be purified by God’s love?  By the merits and grace earned for us by Jesus with His death on the Cross.  In other words, the purging of imperfections that souls experience in Purgatory is as a result of the merits and grace earned for us by Jesus with His death on the Cross.  It is by the blood of Christ that souls in Purgatory are perfected.  There is no other means of perfection available to us.”
According to paragraph-1475 it has nothing to do with God’s love or Jesus but instead the merits of other Catholics. “In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.”

 

 
You say “Catholic teaching that the Mass is the re–presentation of the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and that the Mass is all about the Body and Blood of Jesus.  Therefore, if Masses are being offered for those in Purgatory, then it means that any sins and inclination to sin and punishment due to sin that are purged  So, to represent the Catholic Faith as teaching that the purgations of Purgatory have absolutely nothing to do with the blood of Christ, after what he said earlier about Masses being said for those in Purgatory, seems to me to be a deliberate misrepresentation of Catholic teaching.”

It is you who appears not know what the Mass is?  It is, according to your Catechism 1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. Let me ask you this – how can say the purging in Purgatory is “by the blood of Christ” when the Mass is offered in an unbloody manner. Catholic teaching is not only false it is without logic or consistency.

 


John, I have compassion for you and all those who are being deceived in the name of Christ. Come out of your false religion and worship God in Spirit and truth before it is too late.

Mike Gendron

————————————————————————————

Mike Gendron

John,

Your rebuke of God’s word is not backed up by any official references from the Catholic religion. In my article I state the source of my information but you appear to give your opinions instead of backing up your claims with the laughable “infallible” teachings of the magesterium. You say Catholics are in purgatory because “they are not yet free from imperfections.” They ought to convert to Christ because born again Christians are made perfect forever at the moment of justification by the one offering of Jesus 2000 years ago (Heb. 10:14).

John Martignoni

Mike,

Gee, good thing you don’t like condescending emails, right?  Anyway, I am not rebuking God’s Word, I am rebuking man’s word and, in particular, I am rebuking your word.  Your fallible, man-made, non-authoritative, biased and bigoted word.

You speak of the “laughable infallible teachings of the [M]agisterium,” yet you tend to also speak as if you yourself are infallible.  Do you believe your private interpretations of Scripture to indeed be infallible?  And, if not, will you then admit that your private, fallible interpretations of Scripture, in regard to Purgatory and other such Catholic teachings, could be wrong?  You won’t admit that, though, will you?  You know why?  Pride, Mike…pride.  You are too proud to admit that you could be wrong.  That your interpretations are indeed fallible and, therefore, prone to error.

Heb 10:14, “For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”  Absolutely. But, you seem to be claiming to be perfect, Mike, is that right?  So, you are without sin?  You never commit any sin, whatsoever?  You never have a bad thought or do a bad deed?  Really?!

Well, Mike, Catholic teaching is in perfect unison with Heb 10:14, as it is with each and every passage of Scripture. But, contrary to your fallible private interpretation of this passage, it is not saying that those who are perfected are automatically perfected for all time and can never again sin, if so, then why does Paul so often remind the Christians he writes to about avoiding sin?  If you look at the context, this verse is comparing the sacrifice of Christ to the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.  Those had to be offered over and over again and did not take away sins.  The sacrifice of Christ, however, was once for all time.  This one sacrifice was indeed sufficient to sanctify and perfect all men for all of time, but this verse is not saying that a man cannot lose his sanctification if he later turns away from the Lord and sins.

Look at Heb 10:38, “…but my righteous one shall live by faith and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” Why would God talk about His righteous one shrinking back, if his righteous one has been perfected for all time?  And, in Heb 6:4-6, it talks about those who have repented, and who have “tasted the heavenly gift” and who have “become partakers of the Holy Spirit” and who have “tasted the goodness of the Word of God.”  Those are Christians, right?  I mean, non-believers can’t be said to have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can they?  Of course not.  So, what does this passage then say about these Christians?  It says that they can commit apostasy.  What does that do to your fallible interpretation of Heb 10:14?  Kind of messes it up, doesn’t it?

Regarding giving you my opinion, I do no such thing.  All throughout my dissection of your article on Purgatory and your article on false teachers, I have cited Scripture and the teachings of the Church.  Now, you may not agree with what the Church teaches, but that is not justification to knowingly misrepresent what the Church teaches.  Which you have done throughout your articles.  By the way, what sources did you give?  You cited the Catechism, out of context, and you give your private, fallible interpretation of Scripture.  Is that what you consider your sources?

Mike Gendron

Where do you get the statement “grace earned for us by Jesus with His death on the Cross.” Did Jesus really have to earn grace?  Where do you get the idea that the fire of Purgatory is “the burning fire of God’s love for us.” You said, “And how is it that we are able to be purified by God’s love?  By the merits and grace earned for us by Jesus with His death on the Cross.  In other words, the purging of imperfections that souls experience in Purgatory is as a result of the merits and grace earned for us by Jesus with His death on the Cross.  It is by the blood of Christ that souls in Purgatory are perfected.  There is no other means of perfection available to us.” According to paragraph-1475 it has nothing to do with God’s love or Jesus but instead the merits of other Catholics. “In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

John Martignoni

Jesus did not have to earn anything for himself – once again you twist someone’s words to suit your purposes.  Jesus’ death on the Cross opened up for us the floodgates of God’s mercy and grace.  He didn’t earn it for Himself, He did it for us.  Do you believe we could merit God’s grace all on our own without Jesus’ death on the Cross?  That’s what you seem to be implying here.

Where did I get the idea that the fire of Purgatory is “the burning fire of God’s love for us?”  Well, how about from the Bible?  Heb 12:29, “For our God is a consuming fire.”  1 Cor 3:14, “If the work which any man has built on the foundation (Jesus Christ) survives, he will receive a reward.  If any man’s work is burned up (consumed), he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”  Let’s see, our God is a consuming fire and anyone who is in Purgatory has their works of wood, hay, or stubble consumed by fire…hmmm.  What fire could that be?  By the way, Mike, you said that men have their “spurious works” burned up by fire.  Please be more specific as to what kind of “spurious works,” what is the nature of the fire that burns them up (is it related to God or not), and where exactly is it this burning up of a man’s spurious works takes place?

Regarding your assertion that the burning fires of Purgatory have nothing to do with God’s love, you once again quote the Catechism (#1475) out of context.  What does paragraph #1474 of the Catechism say?  “The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.”  And, Who is that single person to whom all Christians are joined?  Jesus Christ.  So, the merits shared in the Communion of Saints have nothing to do with Jesus and with God’s love?

#1476 of the Catechism, “On the contrary the ‘treasury of the church is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God.  They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father.  In Christ, the Redeemer Himself, the satisfactions and merits of His Redemption exist and find their efficacy.”  You still want to say that it has nothing to do with Jesus?

In other words, Mike, you failed to note that the link that binds together the Communion of Saints is Jesus Christ Himself.  It is only in Him, with Him, and through Him that the holiness of one is able to benefit another, because it is all ultimately the holiness of Christ Himself that the members of His Body share.  Does not what benefits one member of the Body benefit all members of the Body?  So for you to say that the burning fires of Purgatory have nothing at all to do with the love of God or with Jesus seems to be, quite simply, a lie.  And I say it is a lie because you have obviously read the Catechism, so what you’re saying is not out of ignorance but seems to be rather a deliberate misrepresentation of what the Catholic Faith teaches.

Mike Gendron

You say “Catholic teaching that the Mass is the re–presentation of the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and that the Mass is all about the Body and Blood of Jesus.  Therefore, if Masses are being offered for those in Purgatory, then it means that any sins and inclination to sin and punishment due to sin that are purged  So, to represent the Catholic Faith as teaching that the purgations of Purgatory have absolutely nothing to do with the blood of Christ, after what he said earlier about Masses being said for those in Purgatory, seems to me to be a deliberate misrepresentation of Catholic teaching.”

It is you who appears not know what the Mass is?  It is, according to your Catechism 1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. Let me ask you this – how can say the purging in Purgatory is “by the blood of Christ” when the Mass is offered in an unbloody manner. Catholic teaching is not only false it is without logic or consistency.

John Martignoni

Regarding how I can say the “purging in Purgatory” is by the blood of Christ when the Mass is offered in an unbloody manner…is that really the best you can do?  Mike, do you not claim to have been saved by the blood of Christ?  Of course you do.  Yet, how can this be since Christ stopped bleeding two thousand years ago and you weren’t “saved” until what, the 1980’s?  Did Christ have to be crucified again in order for you to be saved and His blood literally poured on you or some such thing? Was not Christ’s blood applied to you in an unbloody manner?  If so, how can you say that you were saved by the blood of Jesus?  He isn’t bleeding anymore is He, Mike?!  Just as you can be perfected by the blood of Christ without having it literally poured over you, so, too, can the souls in Purgatory be perfected by the blood of Christ without having it literally poured over them.

The sacrifice of the Mass, as you well know, Mike, is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross to the Father.  It is our participation in Christ’s spilling of blood on the Cross, in response to Jesus’ command to “do this” in remembrance of Him.  It is our participation in the cup of the “blood of the covenant.”  The cup in which we participate at Mass, the cup which is “poured out” for us, is the new covenant in Jesus’ blood.  No, Mike, we are not bled on at the Mass, just as you were not bled on when you were supposedly “saved” by the blood of Christ.  The Mass is the offering to God of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.  It is not a re-crucifixion, it is a re-presentation of that offering.  Is not Christ in Heaven as our High Priest and does He not continually intercede for us with the Father?  What does He do when He intercedes for us with the Father, Mike?  Does He say, “C’mon, Father, Mike’s a good guy, it’s okay to save him?”  No.  He points to the blood He spilled on the Cross, He re-presents His sacrifice to the Father, and says, “See, Father.  See what I did for Mike.”  And that is how you are able to be saved, Mike.  Not because Jesus was re-sacrificed for you, but because His sacrifice was put before the Father on your behalf.   Just so the souls in Purgatory are perfected, because of the grace and the merits which are available to them because of Christ shedding His blood on the Cross.  The grace and merits which Christ makes available to us through the Mass.  The blood of Christ, offered through the Mass, for the souls in Purgatory.  Is that really the best you can do?

Mike Gendron

John, I have compassion for you and all those who are being deceived in the name of Christ. Come out of your false religion and worship God in Spirit and truth before it is too late.

John Martignoni

Save your compassion for yourself, Mike.  I pray that the Holy Spirit will grant you the grace for you to see through the darkness which has enveloped you and that the scales will one day fall from your eyes.  Your soul is in serious jeopardy, Mike Gendron, and you need to be praying to God to send you the Spirit of Truth.

Comments
  1. In this prayer we recall the shedding of His Blood and ask that He may guide our lives so that we may be worthy of Heaven. In this prayer we are reminded that repentance for our sins goes hand in hand with the struggles of the whole Church and concern for the souls in Purgatory.

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